ZARMEEN PAVRI & JEREMY LIDDLE | SDGx Ventures Climate Fund

What are the UN's Sustainable Development Goals and how can investing help to achieve them? What's the difference between ESG & Impact Investing?

What we do as investors matters. Across the different asset classes, we find a spectrum of impact – from negative to positive – that needs to be addressed.

The solutions are not clear-cut. We live in a complex world, and while it’s easy to blame oil, gas and animal farming for a majority of the emissions, if we were to stop drilling for oil, using gas and herding cattle today, our civilization would collapse tomorrow. A significant amount of people would starve or freeze to death within days.

This is why decarbonization require a system-wide transformation. Financial markets have the unique opportunity to drive this transformation and start a phase shift. Capital is the enabler for innovation and prosperity. By leveraging the right strategies transformational impact can be created that serves the planet, people and profits.

Jeremy Liddle and Zarmeen Pavri work in the Venture Capital space and run SDGx Ventures Climate Tech Fund. All the underlying investments address the many issues of climate change.

Jeremy Liddle is an investor, advisor, and media/PR specialist for climate, tech, and finance companies. He is a founding partner of SDGx, a private UN Sustainable Development Goals investment & advisory firm focusing on climate tech, and executive director of Third Hemisphere, a media relations firm.

He has been an entrepreneur for over twenty years, invested in over 25 private companies, represented Australia at the G20 Young Entrepreneurs Alliance and the UN, spoken at TedX, authored the book "From Idea to Startup", and co-authored the G20 & UN White paper on entrepreneurship and youth employment for the formation of the UN SDGs.

Zarmeen Pavri is a Partner and Chief Impact Officer of SDGx and is an established investment management executive having a multidimensional background over 26

years experience, within the areas of ethical and impact investing, venture capital, hedge funds management, and commercialisation.

She also currently is the Oceania Regional Head to The Global Impact Investing Network (GIIN) and serves on a variety of fiduciary and non-fiduciary boards including being a Non-Executive Director of U Ethical Investors Ltd ($1.5B ethical, ESG Fund manager); is the Chair of the Ethical and Impact Advisory Committee for Apostle Fund Management and sits on variety of start-up advisory boards.

Global Impact Investor Network can be found here.

The Responsible Investing Association Australasia website can be found here.

TRANSCRIPT FOLLOWS AFTER THIS BRIEF MESSAGE

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Phil (29s):
G'day and welcome back to Shares for Beginners. I'm Phil Muscatello. We're entering an era where capital is being directed towards alternative sources of energy and advanced technologies to help reduce greenhouse gas emissions. But is it all talk and no action? Joining me today are a couple of guests who are clearly devoted to taking action. Hello, Jeremy and Zarmeen.

Zarmeen (51s):
Hi Phil.

Jeremy (51s):
Hello

Phil (52s):
Jeremy Liddle and Zarmeen Pavri work in the venture capital space and run SDGx Ventures' Climate Tech fund. All the underlying investments address the many issues of climate change. So tell us a bit about your backgrounds and only a little as you both have impressive histories that we'll publish fully in the episode blog post.

Zarmeen (1m 11s):
Well, I'll start off quickly and try and condense the 26 years into a quick 60 seconds. But essentially, have had 26 years of investment management experience covering ethical investing, ESG, impact investing, venture capital, hedge funds, product development commercialisation. And really through that experience in the last seven years, I actually transitioned into the impact investing space where I really believed, obviously in ESG, but I knew that there was more that we could do with our investment dollar and creating positive outcomes. And so I cut my teeth and went into the international development space and I was the fund manager for Acom International Development and our client was DFAT.

Zarmeen (1m 57s):
And that was a $20 million portfolio for DFAT where it focused on innovation, there was an accelerator fund, it supported the ecosystem in Southeast Asia. And it was really where I cut my teeth and really found that practitioner experience on really understanding the externalities, the impacts that our investments make. And it actually created great investment insights, actually, from a risk perspective, but also opportunities perspective. And so after doing that and being seven years in this industry in the impact economy, the last three years actually have been with the SDGx and it was really a marry up of everything that I've sort of wanted, which was innovation, being global, supporting start-ups at scale, addressing climate.

Zarmeen (2m 44s):
And the best way for me to do that was having a direct line of sight with working in the private markets and VC. So I landed in SDGx doing a climate impact fund.

Phil (2m 53s):
Fantastic. And hello, Jeremy.

Jeremy (2m 55s):
Hello, Zarmeen's too humble. I think she's like run billions of dollars worth of funds under management and like built teams and S managers and sat on ASX listed boards and done so much more than that. But I think for virtue of time, she's probably cut it down short.

Phil (3m 10s):
We'll put it all in the episode blog post. Don't worry about that.

Jeremy (3m 12s):
Yeah. And so for me, I've been running companies for 20 years. That's sort of been my entire professional career. I started out over in Singapore when I was like 21, then got into health foods, built an e-commerce platform, wrote a book, got asked to take over a role running the G20 young entrepreneurs for Australia where I'd pick the Aussie delegation to go to the G20 each year and deliver all the policy recommendations. That led into some work with the UN where we did a white paper co-authored with Helen Clark around the establishment of the Sustainable Development Goals when the millennium development goals were finishing. And so we were looking at what targets there should be within the SDGs for youth entrepreneurship. And then when I sort of finished up that non-profit work, got back into for-profit world, where I built a platform to connect entrepreneurs with investors, which was solving one of the biggest issues back in 2014, particularly in Australia that we thought that entrepreneurs and investors had.

Jeremy (4m 7s):
Through that we raised a fund did about 20 investments out of that fund. But I guess the other common theme throughout my life has been impact. And so my vision was always to get into impact investing once I got into venture capital. And so I've done now about 15 private investments, just personally through my family trust. And it was very, very happy to make Christian and Zarmeen and David, who are the co-founders of SDGx, and now they're getting into climate tech investing.

Phil (4m 35s):
So we're hearing a lot about ESG these days, but there's a difference between ESG and impact investing. Can you just illuminate that for us?

Zarmeen (4m 43s):
Sure, so I might kick that one off and let's start by starting off with a couple of underlying premises, Phil. So one's not to get caught up with the definitions because I think there's a lot of noise with that and the label. And we really need to unpack, I guess, the underlying characteristics of both these sorts of investment approaches and they are actually investment approaches and they're very different and they create different outcomes because they have different starting points. And then one of the last sort of underlying premises that I do want your listeners to know is that every investment regardless of asset class actually has impact. It's just a positive, neutral, negative.

Zarmeen (5m 24s):
You don't measure it. You're naive about the impact that it creates. So that's probably the underlying premise that I'd like to start with. It could be deep impact or light impact. So if we start with ESG, which for some of the listeners that may not know it's an acronym for environmental, social and governance, and as an investment manager, if I'm applying an ESG lens, then my investment approach and the disciplines that I use are very focused on risk analysis to assess a company for instance, on the stock market. And it tends to focus very much on the operational internal issues of that business. So things like workforce diversity, energy consumption, water usage, et cetera. And over the last few years, we're actually seeing capital markets pay more attention to the E the environmental issues with greenhouse gas emissions given the climate emergency.

Zarmeen (6m 12s):
But we're also seeing the capital markets pay attention to the S the social issues like customer privacy, data, human rights, employee health, and safety, et cetera. And the same goes in relation to the governance issues, the G, which is focused on diversity on boards, remuneration, ethical behavior, et cetera. And so essentially all of these ESG factors are being used to make risk assessments on the company's future growth and profitability. And hence for me personally, I just see ESG analysis as basically a hygiene factor that every investor should really have a great understanding of when they're looking at investments.

Zarmeen (6m 52s):
Now, 10 years ago, we had the term coined impact investing. And in 2015, we also had the UN create the Sustainable Development Goals, which really gave the globe and the world goals to aim for in terms of trying to move capital $2.5 trillion to meet these SDGs, to shift that capital into making positive impact and a positive world outcomes. And so when we look at a few other movements, we're moving also from shareholder primacy to stakeholder primacy. So it's really giving the impetus to move towards beyond ESG. And with impact investments, they're actually investments that are made with intention to drive positive, measurable, social, and environmental impact alongside financial returns and impact investments can be both in emerging markets and developed markets across asset classes and has a range of returns.

Zarmeen (7m 50s):
And I suppose, for your listeners, it does get confusing. There's a lot of noise also and different shades of impact, et cetera. But the common tool that is easy to understand is when they're looking at your, your own investment or your portfolio, think about using a tool called the ABC. So a, does your investment avoid harm for a, and you'll see ESG funds or ethical funds excluding fossil fuel tobacco. So it's avoiding more harm B does your investment actually benefit stakeholders. So that could be a way to map your portfolio and investments and see is contributing to solutions. Does any part of your portfolio investment actually contribute to creating real-world outcomes?

Zarmeen (8m 35s):
So the ESG type funds, they typically sit in that age category, they avoid harm, whereas impact investing really definitely contributes to solutions. And the reason why there's confusion is that ESG and impact also benefits stakeholders. And they fall into that gray B category. So if I had to wrap up quickly on that, the ESG investment approach, if we look at it actually is an outside in impact. So how does the world impact the enterprise? And a very internal focus. Me, me, me, me, and it ignores the ecological and social thresholds of the planetary boundaries that actually define sustainability, whereas impact is assessing both outside in, but also assesses inside out, how does this enterprise, this business impact the world people and planet and what we call the double materiality.

Zarmeen (9m 27s):
So that's a really important difference. And we also measure the impact returns alongside financial returns. So hopefully that will give your listeners a little bit of more colour in terms of the differentiation.

Phil (9m 41s):
What are the main tools for fighting emissions is the carbon trading market. And I'm interested to hear your views on the carbon trading market,

Jeremy (9m 48s):
But probably kick this one off. And I think I'd caveat our answer to this question or explain it in that our fund and we aren't investing in, or buying or trading carbon credits. Our portfolio will create a lot of carbon credits to the extent that these technology companies can get them accredited or verified, or they're operating in the markets where there are carbon pricing mechanisms. But I was just doing some research actually before this call and the World Bank has just put out the state of trends of carbon pricing report for 2022. And you know, that their report shows that $84 billion has been generated in revenue, which is a 60% increase on the previous year.

Jeremy (10m 29s):
So there's massive growth in the use of carbon pricing mechanisms and carbon credits. And so there's 68 pricing instruments, 36 of which are taxes. And 32 are emissions trading schemes. And the prices just keep going up because obviously large companies are trying to offset their emissions because that's potentially an easier pathway than actually becoming zero carbon themselves, at least in the short term, which opens up an entirely new discussion around what is the right pathway and what should they be doing or not necessarily mutually exclusive. And in Australia, we don't have a legislated carbon pricing mechanism yet.

Jeremy (11m 10s):
Previous governments have tried perhaps under this new government, they may tackle that again, particularly now that they've got a majority, but, you know, in a perfect world, the carbon price would actually translate zero because we would have so many assets that are sequestering or reducing or removing and able to generate carbon credits that that would completely add the demand for companies offsetting them, obviously a long, a long way from that. So where the pricing mechanisms to work, that would be where we would hopefully land, but in the interim, it's great that so many countries are installing these pricing or, or taxing mechanisms and hopefully Australia can, and the private markets are definitely moving towards that irrespective of legislation.

Phil (11m 56s):
And how do they actually work? I know that's a big question, but I just suddenly realized, well, we're talking about in general about carbon credits, but we don't really know what the mechanism is.

Jeremy (12m 7s):
Well, a tax is increasing the price. And then that, you know, I think everyone understands how taxes work. Therefore it becomes more expensive when you're an emitter. A credit is an accredited or verified measure of an amount of carbon that has been sequestered or removed. And then that can be sold to someone that needs to offset an equivalent amount.

Phil (12m 31s):
So at one company is generating carbon emissions and another one is, or another enterprise is doing something to reduce cabinet emissions. And that's where the offset comes in.

Jeremy (12m 43s):
Correct. So the emitters would be purchases and the offsetters or removers would be the sellers. And then there are people that sit in the middle that trade and broker.

Phil (12m 52s):
So give us a bit of a view on screening for impact in your investing strategy. And I've just realized now, of course, where SDGx came from or the SDG and the name came from the light bulb has come on,

Zarmeen (13m 6s):
I'll kick off a little bit. And I know Jeremy we'll cover later on how we do other screening that in our fund, we've actually designed the investment strategy with an impact thesis and there's various levels of impact in our climate tech funds. So we intentionally designed the investment and impact strategy around the sustainable development goal, number 13, which is climate action. So we are aggressively pursuing the removal of greenhouse gases in our investments. And our fund specifically we'll invest in emerging deep tech companies that are really revolutionizing the global industries and enabling a zero carbon world. And so one of our screens with looking at investee companies is that they had the potential really to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 500 million tons of GHGs per year, within 10 years.

Zarmeen (13m 59s):
That's a pretty big impact gait if you like. And so that's the initial screening. There's obviously other aspects that we look at from an investment perspective. And then we also look at, they need to be deep tech companies, not just traditional companies or traditional tech, which Jeremy can share a little bit later on what deep tech means. And that's because they are based on science and engineering and they are going to be catalytic in terms of changing and transforming various industries. Secondly, we also have ESG negative screens where we definitely avoid harm. We do not invest in projects or activities that would worsen the climate situation. So we've got negative screens.

Zarmeen (14m 40s):
So our actual portfolio is clean. We don't invest, we don't have to transition like a lot of other fund managers do. We're transitioning the portfolio because we're holding some polluting stocks, et cetera. So our portfolio is clean. And so our fund actually creates a nice climate hedge if you like for an investors overall existing portfolio, because we're uncorrelated to equity markets. And then also another investment part of the thesis is that we have picked companies that are focused in the sub sectors of the energy sector, the production and transport and mobility, because we know that these are the sectors that actually create the biggest emissions, and we want to invest in solutions that help those industries and those sectors.

Zarmeen (15m 21s):
So we also screen for that. And then lastly, we're looking for, apart from the sort of metric of the removal of greenhouse gas emissions, we're also looking at the intersectionality of some of these investments. They make, create other positive impacts and other real world outcomes. And we can go through that a little bit later on.

Phil (15m 42s):
Yep. We'll get to seaweed, which sounds pretty amazing. So Jeremy, what is the difference between deep tech and ordinary technologies?

Jeremy (15m 56s):
Yeah, so it's, it's a term that's bandied around a lot. And I guess the essence of it is that deep tech, like it's often hardware, but not always, but it's always technology that is derived from deep scientific or engineering research. And by virtue of that, it takes a very long time to get to market. And when it does, it creates revolutionary, not evolutionary or incremental innovations. So they are creating entirely new markets. It's the kind of thing that's never been seen before, as opposed to an iterative improvement on technology that already exists also because it comes out of that long research pathway.

Jeremy (16m 38s):
It requires very heavy research and development investment through pre-commercialization through to commercialization often conducted by the companies that have acquired or created the intellectual property in the first place. That means that there's very high barriers to entry and that intellectual property is either protected by the company by a potentially a family of patents registered in multiple jurisdictions, or it's at the very least protectable if they're very early stage. And I think then, then the last point is that it's, they're often tested in non-commercial pilots. So because, you know, you can't just invent it and then, and then sell it, you know, it needs a long time to be tested and proven out.

Jeremy (17m 20s):
And so we look at this scale, which is very common and adopted all over the world by people that are involved in the technology called the technology readiness level. And that's just a scale of one to 10, which is a very simple but robust measure of the maturity of the research and the technology. And so we tend to look at companies that are a technology readiness level of four through to six, which means they either lab or pre pilot through to commercial pilot.

Phil (17m 50s):
Can you give us an example of a technology?

Jeremy (17m 53s):
Sure. Like I get, I think we always like to speak to the great examples and the companies that we've invested in. And so one of the very first investments we did was, was called Sicona. It's a battery anode technology. It's an input into mostly into batteries that are used for electric vehicles. And so when we invested, they had proven that this anode technology created massive improvements in efficiencies and storage capacity when it is used within EV batteries, but they couldn't produce it at scale so that they could produce it in a lab, but they hadn't built a manufacturing facility and they hadn't put, started producing kilograms or tons per annum. And so we were part of the investment round, which was for them to build out that first small scale manufacturing facility and take the technology from was sort of technology readiness level TRL five to six at the time.

Jeremy (18m 45s):
And by the time they produced that manufacturing facility, it was sort of then getting six to seven, which is where they are now around nine months later,

Phil (18m 52s):
How do you screen for potential deep tech companies?

Jeremy (18m 54s):
But the first stage of that is creating what a venture capital manager would call proprietary deal flow. That's kind of the, the term that investors in funds like to hear. And what does that mean? It just means that we've got ways of finding these brilliant founders that have invented these technologies better or faster than other investors. You know, there's an asymmetry of information through personal networks or partnerships or relationships. So we have partnerships with universities and competitions and networks of people, particularly in Europe, which is unique for a VC in Australia, in climate technology and deep technology in particular.

Jeremy (19m 35s):
So we've got deep personal networks through Christian Walter, who I mentioned before. One of our co-founders, he's got some other investors that he works with there that through the positions that they sit in on investment committees for the EU investment funds and advising these networks of thousands of companies, they basically get to see almost all of the best climate tech in Europe. So that's one example when we have similar networks in Australia and Southeast Asia. So that's how we see these find the founders. And then when it comes to screening them, as Zarmeen said, first screen is, can they reduce or remove the half a gigaton of GHGs per year, within 10 years?

Jeremy (20m 20s):
Or can we see a reasonably calculatable straight line to that? The next one is the financial return. So we need to have very strong belief in their ability to increase the valuations anywhere from 10 to a hundred times and actually achieve an exit. So we'd need to be able to sell our position in that company or the company might be acquired or, or IPO, and then within the, the life of the fund. So it's a 10 year fund. So we're sort of looking for a five to seven or at the outside nine or 10 year exit. We also have a proprietary scoring methodology. So we quantify on a scale of one to 10, across 22 categories, how we think that that company will perform.

Jeremy (21m 5s):
And that then put some science to the art of assessing a founder and or the founding team and a company and their technology. And then finally, we've also got a proprietary assessment of the motivations of the founders and how they, they interact. So we can, you know, you get a lot of investors, get a good gut feel and you get some pattern recognition, which is often the secret sauce to venture capital, but we've now got a system, a software system that again, puts some, some numbers and some robustness to that gut feel.

Phil (21m 38s):
And this space, it's all about venture capital and private equity. How can ordinary investors or like people listening to this podcast, how can they connect their investment dollars to these real-world outcomes like you are?

Zarmeen (21m 52s):
Well, I think, and I have to at the outset say that this is not financial advice for listeners.

Phil (21m 59s):
We're not recommending any products.

Zarmeen (22m 1s):
No. And so I think that really, before you jump into these things, I think the first step for listeners is to really, first of all, obviously if you've got a financial advisor, talk to your financial advisor, but look at your current investment portfolio first. And I think that you really need to categorize your portfolio using an impact lens if that's what you want to first do. Because if we go back to that, ABC, how much is your portfolio doing harm, a avoiding harm? How much of it is benefiting stakeholders? And see, is there any investments that are actually investing in real world outcomes and contributing to solutions? Now, if you've got no part of your portfolio in that C category, then the direct line of sight for your investment is to go into the private markets.

Zarmeen (22m 51s):
You know, you may have all your money in listed equities, bonds, et cetera. So that's a real strategic asset allocation decision that you're actually making to say, you're shifting from public markets or wherever your portfolio sitting from an asset class to maybe allocating a small part perhaps, or whatever intention you have towards private markets and then getting access to venture capital funds or private equity funds. So first step understand what damage possibly or what impact is your investments doing by just doing that category. And then also asking yourself that when you're making these decisions, and this is what I do in my personal life as well, who suffers for me to have more, there's some few hard questions.

Zarmeen (23m 40s):
What collateral damage is caused when I'm going to allocate this capital to this investment, is this investment really going to achieve addressing some of those Sustainable Development Goals and real world outcomes. Those questions can be asked of any investment you do, and that will help you decide what intention you want before you go out and do a scatter gun approach that I liked this. I liked that because every individual has, you know, have got different value systems and the beauty of impact investing or investing with real-world outcomes is that you can create a financial expression through your value system and only you as an individual will know that.

Zarmeen (24m 21s):
And so some of those building blocks are required before you jump into how and how can I get access, et cetera. And so I would start probably there. And then the lightest way for listeners is if they're working in the, in the labour market, they all have superannuation funds. The first step would be to, you know, look at your superannuation fund first and look at if there's an ESG or sustainable option. So you're moving from no lens, you know, our impact agnostics to actually suggesting and, you know, signalling that you want to create some more impact. And then obviously, yeah, looking out for venture capital funds or private equity funds depends again on, do you want to take some risks on growth companies in the private markets, which is the PE side or venture capital, which is we're looking at earliest stage.

Zarmeen (25m 12s):
So there's a lot of dynamics before you even decide how to get access to some of these things. But yeah, we're here. If anyone wants to explore further,

Phil (25m 23s):
I noticed in my research about SDGx that seaweed's it's playing a role, and I have heard in other situations how fantastic seaweed can be on many levels and having an impact across a whole range of enterprises. Tell us about seaweed

Jeremy (25m 38s):
Seaweed as a product is pretty amazing because it can sequester, you know, capture so much carbon when it grows like that. We've looked at a lot of companies all over the world. There's one in Sydney that we love called ULUU, that when we first met them was a bit early for the funds. So I actually invested personally, they've creating plastic replacement products, like little pellets that then can be used by the fashion industry. And they've now got some amazing partnerships and we are now assessing whether the fund could invest. We would love to, I think they look fantastic, but we aren't there yet. So cross your fingers that everything goes well over the next few months, but that's just one of many, like we've, we've done three, almost four headings towards five and six investments now out of the fund over the last year or so.

Jeremy (26m 26s):
And there's another one is that's kind of similar. Like one of the biggest issues around the world is, is concrete in the construction industry. It's one of the biggest emitters. I think it's, I think there's like 6% of global emissions or something like that can be attributed to concrete. And so the company that we're just to cause any investment into it's actually figured out how to capture and sequester carbon like fly Ash and off ports from industry and put it into concrete mix like powder. And actually the concrete that it creates is significantly stronger than significantly cheaper than normal concrete. So the market for that is just astronomical and the impact that it can create with GHGs, you know, similar to seaweed is huge.

Jeremy (27m 12s):
So between those, those companies and, you know, another one is SpinDrive that have managed to take ball-bearings and turn them into and completely remove them. And now they've got magnetic limitation ball-bearing technology, and that will replace ball-bearings particularly in large industry. Think about how many rotary engines there are in large industry and the carbon that is emissive due to, just to the friction that is created when those things move so that we love that company. And they're up in Scandinavia and now coming into the European market. So really good example of how we're able to find companies all over the world, the concrete companies in the UK. And Zarmeen, you're probably best to talk about one of the other ones as well.

Zarmeen (27m 54s):
Yeah. Phil, when we were talking about that intersectionality of impact, we've got another company, Okra Solar, and it's an Australian based company that it's providing a hardware and IOT solution with some software. And it's a mesh grid solution. That's actually tackling the last energy mile where there's around 770 million people living off grid don't have access to electricity. They've actually deployed their solution into Nigeria, Philippines, Haiti, Cambodia. And now not only are they providing energy access, which is SDG seven, but they're also creating some really great health outcomes for women who are now cooking with electricity, not burning wood, we're achieving educational outcomes.

Zarmeen (28m 39s):
Because if you think about children studying, the lights, the sunsets, they can't study in the dark. They were going to the street lamps to study now having access to electricity. So educational pathways and economic growth for the country in itself. So that's a really great example of, we looked at the climate lens. This was looking at energy renewables with deep impact, with multiple cross sections of additional impacts. And so when we look at that, we are looking at the impact multiply, which is a pre-financial indicator, really for the financial return, you know, acceleration. So they're really integrated and we're super excited with all of those investments that Jeremy mentioned and this Okra Solar as well.

Phil (29m 25s):
So how can listeners find out more about SDGx?

Zarmeen (29m 29s):
So if you're a sophisticated investor, I mean, you can obviously jump onto our website, www.sdgx.io and specifically send us an inquiry and we'll happily have a chat to you and send out our information, memorandum that yeah. We're available to chat and discuss

Jeremy (29m 50s):
LinkedIn's always good.

Zarmeen (29m 51s):
LinkedIn. Yeah.

Phil (29m 51s):
Yeah. But there's also a lot of information there even if listeners are not sophisticated investors, they can find out a lot more about this style of investing as well.

Zarmeen (29m 59s):
Absolutely. And look for general information, you can go to great resources, Global Impact Investing Network, which is thegiin.org. And that's where you find out everything about impact investing is all free. Lots of, lots of tools there. I mean, if they wanted to come in person to understand the ecosystem, you know, in the Australian marketplace, we run the Impact Investing Asia-Pac summit happens every year. You should come to that. Also you could go for responsible investing, which is ESG and sustainable go to the Responsible Investment Association, Australasia the RIIAA website. So they can find out about that as well, just from a generic information gathering perspective.

Phil (30m 34s):
Fantastic. Jeremy and Zarmeen, thanks very much for joining me today.

Zarmeen (30m 37s):
Thanks Phil.

Jeremy (30m 38s):
Thanks for having us.

Shares for Beginners is for information and educational purposes only. It isn’t financial advice, and you shouldn’t buy or sell any investments based on what you’ve heard here. Any opinion or commentary is the view of the speaker only not Shares for Beginners. This podcast doesn’t replace professional advice regarding your personal financial needs, circumstances or current situation