JODI PETTERSEN | An investing room with a view

Recorded before Christmas but released as the first episode of the New Year, Jodi Pettersen has been a friend of the podcast from the early days. She's off to start a new life in Italy and we sat down to chat with no particular agenda. She used to work at eInvest which has now been folded back into the parent firm.

We spoke about the size of the institutional world of money, how I did the wrong financial course but now know more about insurance than I ever thought possible, why women whisper about money and how to help drummers with their dosh. Also about the rapidly diminishing number of financial advisors in Australia.

There's a lot of work that goes into launching an ETF, and it's not as simple as it may seem to the average investor. From an operations perspective, ETFs can be complex and require a lot of behind-the-scenes work to ensure everything runs smoothly. It's the job of those in the financial industry to make the process of investing in an ETF seem effortless and easy for investors, even though there is a lot of complexity involved. Just like a ballet dancer makes their performance look effortless and precise, those in the financial industry strive to make the process of investing seem simple. However, this can be a double-edged sword, as it may give the impression to some that investing is too easy or straightforward.

​Some random thoughts from our chat:

1. Have you ever noticed that people often whisper to you or pull you aside when discussing financial matters? It's important to have open and honest conversations about money, and it's great that people feel comfortable enough to ask for advice or guidance.
2. It's worth noting that this tendency for men to lead financial conversations and for women to be quieter is still present, even in modern times. This is something that financial advisors should strive to change and make sure everyone feels included and able to ask questions.
3. It's not uncommon for one partner in a relationship to take on more of the financial responsibilities. Having a financial advisor can be helpful in these situations, especially if something happens to the more active partner. They can provide support and guidance during times of crisis.
4. Financial advisors can offer more than just investment advice. They can also assist with estate planning, tax matters, and other important issues that can impact families.
5. Even experienced investors can benefit from financial advisors, as they can provide a fresh perspective and help plan for unexpected events.

TRANSCRIPT FOLLOWS AFTER THIS BRIEF MESSAGE

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Chloe (1s):
Shares for Beginners

Jodi (4s):
G'day, and welcome to Shares for Beginner's podcast. My name is not Phil Muscatello, it's Jodi Pettersen, but Phil is in interviewing me today. And what do you wanna talk about Phil?

Phil (15s):
I'm not sure. We haven't even got an agenda. This is a a, it's kind of a holiday episode.

Jodi (20s):
The holiday special.

Phil (21s):
Yeah. So this is the first episode of 2023. So we're gonna be reviewing a bit of what's happened last year and what it's like to be on holidays and just considering the festive season and you know, what we've been both experienced in the financial markets over the last year. Okay. So, Jody Pettersen is a very old friend of the podcast, a very young old friend of the podcast, one of the first supporters of the podcast, and she was with eInvest. And eInvest doesn't exist anymore, so

Jodi (50s):
No, it

Phil (50s):
Doesn't. What's happened there? What was eInvest just to start with?

Jodi (53s):
Absolutely. So eInvest was an active ETF distributor owned by the perennial group, was their parent. And so basically what they decided, the perennial group decided to merge eInvest back underneath the perennial banner. So all the old eInvest ETFs that we've discussed previously on the podcast, like I PQ and Ecor and all those other ones, they all still exist and they're still active on the exchange is just that the parent of eInvest perennial partners, they're the ones distributing it now. So it meant that I am no longer working at the moment cuz I'm about to go on a big adventure.

Phil (1m 30s):
Yes. Tell us about the adventure you're going to live in. I'm so jealous. Live in Italy.

Jodi (1m 35s):
I'm gonna go live in Italy, which

Phil (1m 37s):
Is Milan

Jodi (1m 38s):
Wild. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, the, the wine, the, the merging of Ivest back into the perennial business actually worked out fairly well for me in terms of timing because yeah, I'm, I'm moving to Italy. My husband is actually starting a fund over there and so,

Phil (1m 55s):
And yeah, I think it's always good for investors to understand, you know, the bigger picture and what's going all around, going on all around the world.

Jodi (2m 1s):
Yeah. Because, you know, there's a lot of other investment kind of funds and products that only institutional investors really invest into. And institu, what I mean by institutional investors are, you know, the large sovereign wealth funds, the large superannuation funds here in Australia, the large pension funds overseas, you know, they have really, you know, they're tickets, what we call ticket size or the amount that they invest is much larger than of course, you know, people like you and I and they have, you know, different needs. And so there is yeah, a whole bunch of kind of products out there and, and, and funds out there that just only cater to these types of investors. And, but it, it's, what's really cool is that it means that, you know, you may not know that you're in as a, as if you've got a, your retirement, your superannuation fund with say, Sunsuper or Australian Super or whoever.

Jodi (2m 54s):
You may not know exactly what they've been invested in, but they, they are often invested in things like large renewable energy funds, large infrastructure funds. They often talk about their infrastructure projects where, you know, they're buying into large, you know, say for example, airports and other infrastructure projects, usually that's in the form of a fund. Some, and they're obviously attractive investors for institutional investors, but it's kind of more difficult for in individual investors to get in there.

Phil (3m 24s):
I was having lunch yesterday with some old friends from school and one of them is quite a, a big mover and shaker in financial services and, and I was just having a chat, you know, and I, I was sort of saying, because again, they're dealing in these very large institutional sized pots of money, which is, you know, it's okay, it's where our super's invested in. But, and I, I sort of said to him, well, what about ETFs are they making because he's dealing all in managed funds. Sure. And you know, I said, what about ETFs? And he just scoffed. Yeah, because you just don't, because we all talk about ETFs as retail investors, but the vast majority of investment is really still in these quite expensive, possibly managed funds.

Jodi (4m 10s):
Well, okay, they're ex they might look expensive from the retail price if you look, but often the institutional investor will negotiate the price of what they pay. So they will, because they're investing such large amounts of money, they can get usually pretty good discounts. So in terms of cost, they'd probably be cheaper than ETFs on a, you know, on a percentage basis. Cuz they've got that economy, those big funds have those economies of scale to really negotiate good pricing. And yeah, in terms of ETFs for larger institutional investors, it's just, you know, there's no point. There's no point. There's no, no, there's, there's better ways for them to do it and more safe ways, more direct ways where they have kind of more oversight, more control and, you know, they can negotiate fees.

Jodi (4m 51s):
You can't negotiate your fee for et you're an etf. Right.

Phil (4m 53s):
They're low enough already.

Jodi (4m 55s):
They are low enough. Well, you hope so, but you know, it's, it's, that kind of world is things that usually a little bit more bespoke and a little bit, and yeah, it's, it's a little bit more, more complicated. But, so that's, they don't really do ETFs much, but I have heard of some super funds using them for tactical reasons. So maybe just really short term mo like if they wanna get exposure really short term to a currency or to a specific asset class, or even if they just want a short term exposure while they're changing their strategy. So if they're in the, in the process of changing their strategy and they just need, you know, exposure to a specific area of the market just for a little bit of time, then maybe it would make sense.

Jodi (5m 36s):
And so I have heard of that occasionally institutional investors using ETS for those reasons. But it's, it's, it's more of a retail investor thing.

Phil (5m 44s):
What is a managed fund?

Jodi (5m 46s):
Well, it's pretty similar to an ETF in the sense that it's a pool of assets that one buys units into just like an etf. But, but ETFs are, are exchange traded funds. So you buy those units, you transact on and off the exchange using your, you know, usually your online broker or other broker. Whereas a managed fund, it is not exchange traded. So to buy and sell the units, you have to deal with the administrator and custodian, which is more paperwork essentially. So it's just a different way of accessing a pool of funds of which you own units or, you know, portions too. So, and that pool of funds, just like an etf, those managed funds will have their, you know, their own investment guidelines, their own investment goals, their own restrictions on what they're type of asset class, their targeting or what type of, you know, what, what type of approach that they're taking.

Jodi (6m 40s):
So that will all be defined for the managed funds. So, you know, like what you are investing in essentially.

Phil (6m 47s):
Yeah. And so if you go to a financial advisor often they'll put you into a basket of managed funds. Yeah. Won't they? Yeah, yeah,

Jodi (6m 53s):
Yeah. And you know, in terms of exposure to the underlying, you know, in terms of like exposure to the markets, you're still gonna get the same thing. It's just accessing it slightly differently. And, you know, I generally, as a retail investor, I prefer ETFs because I really like being able to just buy and sell in the exchange. I love that, that ease of transaction. But, you know, institutional investors, they, it's, it's not, ease of transaction is not really their main priority. They're probably more worry about risk fees, control, transparency. So they can get that usually better through a managed fund. Yeah.

Phil (7m 30s):
So in 2022, I did my RG146 course, congrat, congratulations, you've, you've done an RG146 course. So I actually know a lot more about markets and the financial, the Australian financial system than, than I've ever thought that I would have to know about. What I found interesting about it though is first of all, the first point is it seems to me, I've always felt that there was this code that people in the finance industry spoke in. But now I realize it's not a code, it's the language that we were taught in the RG146 course.

Phil (8m 10s):
And it's all based on the regulations of the corporations Act. And so all of this terminology, and I hear people speaking that I'm interviewing and they use a term and I just don't realize how solid that term is based on, based on the regulations. And the second point is I actually feel a lot more confidence in the financial system because I realize how structured it is. I mean, it can be limiting as well, I think because there's a lot of people who are not getting a lot of financial advice anyway. That's not a question, that's just a comment. But

Jodi (8m 41s):
Absolutely. Let's

Phil (8m 43s):
Hear your point

Jodi (8m 43s):
Of view. Yeah. The more you research into it, the more you realize how, and as someone who's worked in the industry for a long time, I see behind the scenes, I know what goes into launching an etf. I know how much work is involved, I know how much legal advice you need to make sure you're following these laws. I know how complicated they are from an operations perspective. I understand. You know, and now you have a, probably have a better idea as well from like marketing rules, like what you can say and what you can't say and what the penalties are. If you, if you don't follow the rules, they can be quite severe. So as someone who's Yeah, the more, it's, it's interesting.

Jodi (9m 24s):
I I'm actually really glad that you got that impression from it because I think it can, okay. I, I used to do ballet when I was a child growing up. And like, what I love about ballet is so technically complex, but you're there just to make it look effortless. That's part of your job. You've gotta smile through it. And part of the procedure is to make it look effortless, to make it look precise and perfect. And I guess like financial services is similar in a way because there's all these cogs and, and work going on behind the scenes, but then it's our job to make it seem effortless, to make it easier for investors to get involved, to make it seem simple when it's not. And, but, and so maybe we've done too good a job if people think it's just too simple or too easy.

Jodi (10m 10s):
I don't think we are there yet. Hmm. But I do. Yeah. I'm actually really glad that you came away from that with that impression. That is actually a lot more complicated than what it sounds because Yeah, it's, it's, it is more complicated than what it looks from the outside. But I have a question for you, Phil, about your RG146. Yeah. What was the thing that surprised you the most about it?

Phil (10m 34s):
Well, let me start off talking about the, doing the wrong course, cuz I did the wrong RG146 and then did the correct RG146. And the the wrong one that I did was basically the, the credentials you would need to work as a bank teller or at an insurance company call center. And I just, what was interesting is actually having done that, even though I wasn't, I didn't even need to do it. But now when I go to a bank, which is not very often anymore, or you're talking to someone from an insurance company, which I had to do recently because our car got written off. Oh no. And just to find out about how structured the interactions are between customers and representatives of a bank financial services group or an insurance company are, and they're really, really constrained in what they can say and what they can not do.

Phil (11m 27s):
But also that you have to be pro, those people have to be proactive in dealing with you. It's like when if you go to the bank and someone that sounds like someone's upselling something to you, but that's, they're not actually upselling, they're actually required to try and make sure that you got getting the best product from that institution. So that was, that was interesting and surprising. There was also having going, gone through the right off stage and now knowing about a bit more about insurance because, you know, know if you have a car written off, you feel guilty, you think, oh, is their insurance gonna company gonna think that's my fault? Or are they, which they do Of course if you're riding, I've got a car written off, you know, a car called fire Sure. In a car park.

Jodi (12m 7s):
Sure.

Phil (12m 7s):
But you realize that insurance companies actually have people called actuaries who are looking at risk and you are just one little tiny risk that hasn't paid off for them amongst a whole range of them. Absolutely. And once they, once they've assured themselves that you are, you know, you're not trying to scam them or you, you let the, the fire yourself, it went really smoothly. So I think that was surprising in a way to find not so much surprising but illuminating

Jodi (12m 39s):
Because I think it is true. Like it can, like as someone who's worked in this industry for a long time, you've gotta do disclaimers like, you know, I'm not a financial advisor. We, we have to talk about that. And it can kind of sound like I'm not a financial advisor junior in research, you know, I don't know your circumstances always seek advice for the PDFs. Yeah. All that stuff. It sounds, you sound like a robot, but as someone who's, you know, you must do that too when you have to do the disclaimer of this podcast. But it is all actually there for a real reason. And the penalties were not doing it at the high. Yeah. So yeah, like it's our, it's our challenge. And that's actually what I really love about this work is, is my challenge to make sure that all that is definitely done and done well, but also trying to maintain this feeling of that finance is accessible and understandable.

Jodi (13m 31s):
It might make it a smooth, a smooth interaction or make it a, hopefully a positive interaction too. And I guess that's also what you do too, in a way in this podcast.

Phil (13m 39s):
Well, that's a perfect segue into my next point is that coming away from it, you also realize the constraints of people finding out information about finance that's not conflicted and try and do a podcast about this. But you've gotta actually be very careful because you are actually operating under these rules, which is why I had to do this finance education. Yeah.

Jodi (14m 3s):
I think it's actually really good that, you know, that it had to, that education had to be done, even though I know like it would've been quite a pain for you to do this year. Like, and like it's probably as it is achievement to get it done, but I think it is true if we are like more and more people are listening to podcast, YouTube channels, things like that. And if they're not getting the right advice, there is actually like potentially yeah, well not the right advice, but even just the right information because it's not advice, there is information.

Phil (14m 33s):
There is a tendency though, because of all this regulation that there is so many constraints on even just talking about investment and money that it becomes very hard. And we are in a situation now, I've just found out that there's gonna be something like 13,000 financial advisors for the whole of Australia, 13,000 and,

Jodi (14m 54s):
And it used to be about 19, a few

Phil (14m 56s):
Years ago, I think it was about 25 Yeah. Or something like that.

Jodi (14m 58s):
But it's Oh really? Yeah. The numbers have been steadily dropping Yeah. Massively because of these increased education

Phil (15m 4s):
Requirements. But it's also the costs involved as well. Like if you go and see a financial advice, you've gotta get a statement of advice, which is gonna cost three to $5,000. And you can see the reason for that because they're not actually making too much money out of the statement of advice. It's just what's required by the legislation. And it's really hard for ordinary people to straddle that. I mean, if you haven't got a lot of money, you're not gonna be able to afford a financial advisor. No. But on the other hand, you wanna try and work out how you can get ahead, which you do these days with YouTube and podcasts and blogs and books, Instagram influencers. And then on the other side of it is, if you're talking about crypto, there is no legislation. Sorry. Yeah.

Phil (15m 44s):
It's end of brave.

Jodi (15m 45s):
Oh, I agree entirely. Like, I mean, I was, I, I downloaded tick, one of my things I did for this year is I downloaded TikTok for the first time and I was horrified at all the crypto

Phil (15m 58s):
Pumpers

Jodi (15m 58s):
Pumping and dumping going on there. It is cooled down since crypto markets have have gone down, but I actually have deleted TikTok, so I'm not on there anymore. So maybe it hasn't cooled down, but I, I was horrified at what I was saying and it was, and I, I wonder, I wonder if we'll ever get a really true picture of how much people have lost money in these crypto coins cams because I just, I think it's, it's like gambling people tend not to talk about their losses. They only talk about their wins. Right.

Jodi (16m 38s):
And because it's such an opaque market, I, I just think there must be a lot of people out there who've probably lost money. And I'm sure there's some people who've made money out of this too, but I do. Yeah. The whole, the the TikTok plus crypto stuff was wild. And even property, you know, it's, it's, it's, you're allowed totally un about property on social media, which is why you see all these channels, you know, talking about house hacking and, you know, buying investment properties and flipping and all that kind of stuff. It's because there are no, there's much less regulations on that, even though like the, the amounts of money because of the leverage or the loans you can get, the amounts of money that we're talking about are enormous for an end.

Jodi (17m 24s):
Like, you know, that's a huge part of most people's personal wealth. They're house housing, so. Yeah. Yeah. And yet somehow here we are. Yeah. We are talking about all the good stuff.

Phil (17m 36s):
Well, that's right. Well it's, you know, that's financial products is what you, you're constrained in talking about. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I'm feeling, so I really feel passionate about, there's a lot of people who don't have a lot of money and they, they, you know, they might have a bit of super, but people have all sorts of financial circumstances and can be constrained financially in so many ways. And we've suddenly in this world where there's so many opportunities to get your act together. But unless you can talk about it.

Jodi (18m 7s):
I agree. And, but I think it

Phil (18m 9s):
Then, then they'll be full prey to crypto scammers.

Jodi (18m 12s):
Yeah. Look, I think buyer beware, if it sounds old age adages do still stand suit. Like if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Hmm. You know, if someone's flogging a product really hard at you, you should probably take that as a red flag. Even things online, like when they talk about retiring early, you know, financial freedom, all these words that are these buzzwords, which sound like, you know, they sound like just everyday words, but I think that they can be like red flags for information. So I think, you know, learning to, I think sometimes boring is best.

Jodi (18m 56s):
You know, like just, and learning to kind of be a bit skeptical and choose where you get your information from. Don't just, I think it's really easy with these algorithms on social media just to absorb like, you know, absorb more and more information and the algorithm on TikTok or Instagram just keeps pushing stuff to you if they think that you're interested into it. And so you just end up kind of absorbing it without properly sitting back and thinking, oh, what's the, you know, what's the bigger picture here? Who is this person? What's,

Phil (19m 26s):
What's the downside?

Jodi (19m 26s):
What's the downside? Like, you know,

Phil (19m 28s):
Who benefits

Jodi (19m 28s):
Exactly all this stuff. So, but I think that that's why, you know, I do think podcasting's a much like a better format because you can go into more detail. You can, it's a, it's a more, it's also a little bit more cerebral. Like it's more intimate. So I think you've got more time to think about it.

Phil (19m 46s):
We're we're right in everyone's ears.

Jodi (19m 48s):
Exactly. But I think it is actually a better format for this type of, these types of conversations. And I think, you know, do your own research. I know it's a boring statement and people say it all the time, but it is true.

Phil (20m 3s):
Well it is. I mean, this is the thing, you have to do your own research. Yeah. And people don't wanna take responsibility for that. And I can understand that you've got better things to do, but you really have to research every decision that you make.

Jodi (20m 19s):
So where do you like, like it's interesting, we've, you and I have talked about this before, Phil, like, cause I have someone who's, and I've worked in this industry for some time. I often have friends coming up to me like say we're a barbecue or something. It's really interesting cuz it's, cause I think, cause cause I'm a woman, it, I do think the interaction is different than with other guys. Like, I have people coming up to me going, Hey Jody, I know that you are, you know, you work in this ETF space investing space, can you tell me more about it? But it's always kind of on the dl it's always like a whisper and it's always like, they've pulled me aside at a barbecue or something like that as opposed to like, I see with my husband and his friends, it's all as very much, much more in the open and they will talk much more openly about finance, about what they're investing in.

Jodi (21m 11s):
I think it's fascinating that difference of like how it

Phil (21m 14s):
Is, isn't

Jodi (21m 14s):
It? Like why, why do people come over and whisper to me and pull me aside? I'm always happy to have those conversations and like, you know, with my friends and I'm glad that they ask that. Like they feel comfortable asking me in that way asking me at all. But why, why am I being whispered that? What do you think?

Phil (21m 33s):
I've talked to other people about this and it's, and it's also to do with, and I can't remember if this was a conversation I had with you or with Molly from Ladies Finance club is that they women and you know, I've got, I don't think women need to feel that way because women are great and women have got bigger brains than men in most cases. And there much more sensible investors. But I think they're just used to, that's right now Molly was saying that she was in these financial meetings and conferences and it's always been a men's talking and asking questions and the women sitting quietly by, and I'm not sure why that that is, in this day and age, that women feel that they need to be sitting quietly in these situations when you're talking about money.

Phil (22m 19s):
And, and I think the best financial people and the best financial advisors will try and bring along both people in a couple, you

Jodi (22m 28s):
Know, I hope so. Well, and it's, it's, you know, and I think actually when we're talking about the benefit of financial advice, that is a really big one is, is is having someone help bring the other half along and have all the information there. So if you,

Phil (22m 43s):
And explain things in a way that they can understand

Jodi (22m 45s):
And if something happens to the more active partner, you know, things can happen. And then, and you see there's a lot, particularly with older women, is that there has been, you know, passes away for whatever reason or is incapacitated and suddenly they don't have, they don't even know, like where actually it's the inverse for my dad, my parents, my, my dad does not know how to get onto online banking and my mom takes care of all of it, but they don't even know have access to how to get onto the banking. It's, that's the reality of it is that, you know, often there is one partner in the relationship that has more access to these things. But I think having financial advisor who's there to help you, if there is something does happen to one partner, they can, they can really help you in those moments of crisis.

Jodi (23m 31s):
And I have heard of stories like that and I've even heard of, I have one friend who works in private wealth, which is like financial advisors, but for extremely high work net worth individuals. And one of his main clients is a really experienced investor. And so you, you'd be like, well why does this guy have a financial advisor? He's, he's super experienced, he's completely financial illiterate. He's, he's made a lot of money. He doesn't, why would he need a financial advisor? But what my friend disclose is that his real purpose is that this wealthy investor really wanted to make sure that his family was taken care of if anything happened to him. So he was seeking advice, not so much investment advice of what, how do I make money or how do I, you know, what way should I put my money?

Jodi (24m 18s):
It was much more about facilitating and making sure his family was okay if there was anything to happen to him. So making sure state the estate Yeah,

Phil (24m 30s):
Tax, legal,

Jodi (24m 30s):
Tax, all that stuff. Making sure that if, you know, if there's one person that takes care of all that for you. And if you're wealthy enough to have that, I think, you know, that made a lot of sense to me. And so, you know, the reasons that people go for financial advisors to advance is super varied and even super experienced investors still use them for, for more than just investment advice.

Phil (24m 55s):
Yeah. So, you know about hopeless musicians that don't invest. I do. What plans have you got in place for? Oh, I don't know unnamed drummers that,

Jodi (25m 6s):
So Phil is making an allude illusion to my brother who happens to be a professional musician in a well-known band. And I, you know, I help him a little bit with, with investing because he, he's, this is not his world and, and he's, and he's not particularly interested in it. Bless his soul. He's kind of just, you know, off in his own musical world. So I have been, you know, in the time, in the past, I often will gift him ETF units for his birthday or Christmas and just, you know, that's little pot of money that sits to aside if he needs it. And more recently I'm trying to help him and to the housing market for the first time.

Jodi (25m 48s):
So, you know, I I I like that, you know, he can trust me and enough to say, oh, this is what we're thinking and, and that kind of stuff. So that's the, all the help that I'm giving at the moment. But it's is no, it's more just guidance.

Phil (26m 3s):
But you can see where there's ordinary people. I mean, you don't have to be a hopeless musician. None that these hopeless, he's not his great, but there's hopeless, there's hopeless people all over the place. They've got no idea about money and they don't have a sister like you

Jodi (26m 15s):
And they don't have a big sis. Yeah, I know it sucks. I wish it was more accessible and, but that's why I think the work that you do is so important, Phil, because this is completely free to listen to. You have people on this podcast from all different institutions, you're not conflicted. You know, you're not, you're not being paid to sell one thing or another. You have all different opinions on the, the podcast that allows people to kind of get educated and form their own own opinions in and in their own time, in their own way. Like, I think so many people love to listen to podcasts while they're doing other stuff. And I think that's just, you

Phil (26m 52s):
Know, well it's, it's great. I mean, I had a guest on and he said a wonderful thing. He said, just listen to the words and because you're not gonna understand everything straight away, but if you can let those words wash over you and you start absorbing things, you just start to understand a bit more about how the world works and absolutely how money works.

Jodi (27m 10s):
And I mean, it's similar to learning a language. Like as someone who's now trying to learn Italian, because I'm about to move there and I don't speak it.

Phil (27m 18s):
I'll give you some good swear words after we get off. I haven't

Jodi (27m 21s):
Learned, they're not enjoy lingo. I haven't learned those yet. But I, it, you know, learning language is similar. Like often you have, I've learned other languages in the past too, and you have a conversation with someone and then this word will pop out that you just never heard of before. And do you abandon the whole conversation? No. I'll either ask what what does that mean? Yeah. And usually people are, are really kind enough to explain or sometimes you just let it roll and just, you know, write it down for later or, and or just kind of try and work it out from the context of the rest of the conversation. But just like learning language, you know, the, the best way to do it is to immerse yourself.

Jodi (28m 5s):
Right. And even if you don't understand everything, you just keep listening and it gets better and better. I remember when I was learning French for the first time, because when you, when you're learning it, I was living there, so you kind of immersed and you don't really have a measurement of how, how much you've learned your progress because you just, it's just around you every day. But then when I was there, I went to the, the cinema and I watched the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo film, but in Swedish, the original version in Swedish. So it was Swedish with French subtitles and I followed the whole film. Wow. And I was like, whoa, this is, I've I now really under, I was like, wow, I've, I've actually made a lot of progress in my, in my learning that language.

Jodi (28m 51s):
And it was that moment where just being able being like that, that was that moment where I realized that I'd learned a lot. And so I wonder if we could, could we do that for finance? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, exactly this moment where you suddenly like, oh, actually I do know all the words. It makes sense. Yeah, yeah. In that PDFs, maybe pull out the PDFs and give it a read and see how, how much youand no

Phil (29m 11s):
Matter how

Jodi (29m 11s):
Dull it is in, oh my God, PDSs are so boring. As someone who's helped write one them before, they're just so boring. But, you know, or maybe it's watching a more, like a more sophisticated film or even like reading a book, like different books and working out, oh actually maybe I have learned a lot more than what I thought I have. If you just absorb, absorb, absorb through the podcasts and then maybe test yourself.

Phil (29m 36s):
Yeah, yeah. And in fact, that's another thing coming back to the education, the, the RG 1 46 is you realize that there are those words that in the past I would've didn't think that they were solid. But you know, like when I, someone says, say for example, secondary market, yes. I actually know secondary market is a thing, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's, I'm not gonna talk about that now cause it's so dull. That's pretty dull. That's, you don't need to, you don't need to. But these are the kind of things that you hear and you realize it's like you've learned a bit of the language and you understand what it actually means and how the finance industry is structured. So before we go, let's talk about some books.

Phil (30m 16s):
You've got some holiday reading.

Jodi (30m 18s):
Well, you know, when we talked about going on this podcast, I was like, Phil, what are you gonna ask me?

Phil (30m 22s):
And, and now we've talked for 36 minutes already with no questions prepared. I love these kinda

Jodi (30m 28s):
Interview. I love it. But I, you know, I have been, because I'm in the process of moving, I've been going through all my stuff cause I've gotta get rid of everything pretty much. But I've, I've, I've been going through my, my library and I actually, you know, I actually have a number of books that are related to finance that are really good kind of summer reads. So, and, and when I was at eInvest I used to always do a post this, a blog post at this time of year where I'd ask all my portfolio managers, what's your sum? What are you reading this summer? And I would share the, share those around that always did really well. So I figured I'd, I'd bring my own of like some books that are I could recommend that are finance related, but are also like, kind of interesting as well. Yeah.

Jodi (31m 8s):
So,

Phil (31m 9s):
And they're not the, they're not the usual,

Jodi (31m 10s):
They're the

Phil (31m 11s):
Usual. Yeah,

Jodi (31m 12s):
Yeah, yeah. I'm sure I can see. Well, I'll start with this one. Freezing. Have you, have you had, surely you've talked about red notice before on this powder? No,

Phil (31m 19s):
I don't think so. Oh,

Jodi (31m 21s):
I'm surprised you haven't heard of this one yet, or if you haven't talked about Red notice before, because it is no one of the, it's honestly like, it's like Jason born meets finance. Wow. And it's a true story.

Phil (31m 31s):
Well then what's it say on the cover? What's that? A true, this is a true story of,

Jodi (31m 35s):
Of Russian money laundering murder and surviving Vladimir Putin's Roth. Wow.

Phil (31m 40s):
So

Jodi (31m 41s):
This is the second one to the first book called Red Notice, which is about, is all written by Bill Browder. He's also really good to follow on Twitter if you wanna keep up keeping up with Russian sanctions and Putin and the war in Ukraine. It's very, very relevant to what's going on right now. But basically he was a hedge fund manager in the world's largest hedge fund man, Russian hedge fund manager. And became, was eventually persecuted by Putin here to escape. And his lawyer was murdered in prison by Putin's cronies. He became a human rights activist. And then basically through that activism pushed for what we, I think it's the, I'm gonna pronounce the name wrong, Majewski Act, which is the, the Russian sanctions on the, the sanctions in the US on Russian oligarchs.

Jodi (32m 31s):
And so it was really about using finance to punish Putin. And his oligarchs really hurt him where it hurts, which is his money. Yeah. Because, you know, he was essentially all these Russian oligarchs were essentially hiding all their wealth in western nations, primarily through Western banking systems. And so through his activism, he's enact, help enact the Majesky Act in the US but also in all over the world. And he was in Australia not that long ago, also pushing for us to take upon these laws, these sanctioned laws as well. Fascinating. Read, as I said, it reads red noticed and then freezing orders, the more modern one. And it really relevant to what's going on in the Ukraine right now.

Jodi (33m 12s):
Jason B Yeah. And they're making a film about it. Yeah. And the j I think the Jason Bour director is also making a film about it. Oh, okay. So it is really like Jason Bicks finance. Love it. And then I've got these two, which are like the opposites of each other. So I've got the World of Three Zeros by Mohamed Eunice. And then I've got barbarians at the gate, the fall of Art Jr Nabisco. So this is like art. The four barbarians at the gate is like a classic finance book. It's about the fall of RJ Bisco, which was a large American conglomerate. It's essentially like Peak Wall Street greed and how that fell, that that caused, and like basically how this enormous company fell thanks to Peak Wall Street.

Jodi (33m 55s):
Greed can get a bit. That's great. It's really good. Yeah. And then this one here, the World of Three Zeros by Mohammed Eunice is, so Mohammed Eni is a Bangladeshi man who won a noble peace prize in 2006. And he's talked all about how finance can change the world for the better. The world of three zeros. He refers to how microfinance, particularly he says the new economics of zero poverty, zero unemployment, and zero carbon emissions. So he was kind of the cr the first creator of microfinance or micro lending. Yep. Yeah. And

Phil (34m 26s):
Which happens a lot in developing nations, isn't it? Where small, very, very small projects are financed at a village level.

Jodi (34m 34s):
Village level stuff. And so he created what's called the Grameen Bank, which was a bank that basically did these tiny micro loans. So even like, you know, lending a few dollars. So they, one example he gives is how in one specific area, there was a lot of families, lung young children were having problems with their eyesight. They weren't getting enough, I think it's vitamin A, I'm not sure of the exact vitamin, but one of the vitamins. And so he was lending money, very small amount of money so they could buy for, to buy tomato seeds. So then these families would start growing tomatoes in their, in their, in their garden, in their backyard, like small tomato plants. They'd sell some of the tomatoes to make some money, and then they'd also feed their kids these tomatoes.

Jodi (35m 16s):
And that actually really helped improve the eyesight of these children and provided money for them. And

Phil (35m 24s):
How lucky are we in the West? Eh?

Jodi (35m 26s):
I know, right? Yeah. But like to think that, that, you know, what I really like about this is that it, it, it's really talks about how capitalism can be used for good. And it's a fascinating book. So, and it's, it's a pretty easy read as well. So definitely recommend this to the world, the World of Three Zeros by Maha.

Phil (35m 49s):
Okay. I'll put that in the episode notes, all the books and some links. Jody, it's been great chatting with you. Good luck in Milan. Thank you. I'll give you one Italian word, which is very useful in clothing stores.

Jodi (36m 2s):
What's that

Phil (36m 3s):
One? One. Oh, it's just, whenever you're in a clothing store, the sales assistant will say promo, let's try it.

Jodi (36m 8s):
Let's try it. Okay. I like that promo. We will. I, okay, so I've learned what I've learned from Italian. The IMO at the end means we, so we'll let's try it together, like

Phil (36m 18s):
Yeah, yeah.

Jodi (36m 18s):
Together we, we'll try it together. It's so that Yeah, exactly. So it's a, but I have to say my Italian's still very basic, so Yeah. Sounds like you're ahead of me there. Oh,

Phil (36m 31s):
Not very far.

Jodi (36m 33s):
It's funny bit. So, you know, I, I, in terms of like what it's Italy and what's happening next, you know, I don't even know, like I obviously look for a new job while I'm over there. I don't know. Obviously I love talking business. B2c, like talking to individual investors. I dunno how I'm gonna do that in Italy cuz I don't speak Italian, so I'm not sure. I'll probably get more of a in.

Phil (36m 57s):
I'm sure they can organize an Italian front for you.

Jodi (37m 1s):
We'll see. We'll see. I'm sure whatever happens, it's gonna be an adventure.

Phil (37m 6s):
Jodie, thanks very much.

Jodi (37m 7s):
Thank you.

Phil (37m 8s):
If you found this podcast helpful, please tell a friend, especially if it's someone who needs to start thinking about investing for their future. You'll be helping them and helping me to keep this show on the road.

4 (37m 18s):
Shares for beginners is for information and educational purposes only. It isn't financial advice and you shouldn't buy or sell any investments based on what you've heard here. Any opinion or commentary is the view of the speaker only not shares for beginners. This podcast doesn't replace professional advice regarding your personal financial needs, circumstances, or current situation.

Phil (37m 37s):
And thank you for listening to my podcast.

Shares for Beginners is for information and educational purposes only. It isn’t financial advice, and you shouldn’t buy or sell any investments based on what you’ve heard here. Any opinion or commentary is the view of the speaker only not Shares for Beginners. This podcast doesn’t replace professional advice regarding your personal financial needs, circumstances or current situation