PETER CHILTON | from Under The Radar Report

This episode was inspired by a question from listener Tom who wanted to find out more about investing in copper.

Copper is a crucial metal in today's renewable energy revolution, and understanding its market dynamics can be key for investors. In this episode, I'm joined by Peter Chilton from the Under the Radar Report to delve into the world of copper mining and investment.

Here's a link to download a recent UTTR report on copper.

Peter explains the unique position of copper in the global market, highlighting its diverse usage and the challenges of supply. The conversation touches on the major players in the copper mining industry, both in Australia and globally, and offers insights into the potential investment opportunities in copper stocks and ETFs.

We talk specifically about the large mining companies and smaller players like Evolution Mining, Carnaby Resources and Cooper Metals, as well as the broader implications of investing in copper through the Wire ETF. Peter provides a detailed analysis of the market, addressing supply constraints, demand drivers, and the importance of recycling in the copper industry.

We also delve into the historical significance of copper, its role in the renewable energy sector, and the future outlook for copper investments.

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Chloe: Shares for beginners Phil Muscatello and Fin pods are authorized reps of Money Sherpa. The information in this podcast is general in nature and doesn't take into account your personal situation.

Peter Chilton: Copper is probably quite good in the sense that unlike, say, nickel, it seemed that demand for nickel is going to be very strong, but it certainly gets oversupplied by Indonesians. With copper, you can't see anywhere in the world which is going to lead to oversupply, which would really upset the market. I mean, copper can be quite hard to find in deposits which are economic to mine. There's a lot of deposits unmined in South America, for instance, but the grades are still low and then you've got all the infrastructure to provide.

Phil: G'day and welcome back to shares for beginners. I'm Phil Muscatello. It was the first metal to be smelted and led humans from stone to metal tools. It's still incredibly important because of its ability to transmit power and electrons in general, it's copper, and it's now become a key metal in the renewable energy revolution. Joining me today to discuss copper from an investment point of view is Peter Chilton from the under the radar report. G'day Peter.

Peter Chilton: G'day Phil.

Phil: Thanks very much for coming around. This episode is in response to a listener who asked for a discussion about copper miners. Thanks Thomas, and thanks for your kind words about the podcast. Thomas writes he is looking for a discussion on copper and whether Carnaby resources CNB could be investable at this stage. Also Cooper Metals CPM, which is prospecting in the same region. The Wire ETF also particularly views on underlying holdings. But before we address Thomas questions, let's set the table by describing the current state of the copper market. I just realised I wrote the current state of the copper market. Unintentional punning. Peter, what is copper supply and demand looking like?

Peter Chilton: Well, the market certainly tightened up, but China's very much is like a swing demand effect because they're copper's largest consumer of copper. So that means that whatever China is doing does have some influence on the copper market, and that's on the demand side. And that's on the demand side. Yeah. So sometimes whatever's happening in the chinese market can affect the copper market. At the moment, the copper price had a good run up to well over $5. It's now gone back to about 460 something. So it's weakening off. And I think there are overtones that maybe demand isn't quite as strong as what people might have been thinking earlier on, but nevertheless, I think a long term prognosis. Well, I say long term over the next two to three years is very, very good.

Phil: And what about the supply side? Have there been any constraints on supply?

Peter Chilton: There's been quite a number of constraints on supply, as it often is, and it's often quite difficult to get new projects. Well, firstly, discover new projects which are really economic, and then secondly, there's always a lead time to develop them. So there's always been a like a shortage of new copper producers coming online. So there's always been this year of a severe copper shortage. Now, in the event over the last two years, it really hasn't occurred because of that China factor, maybe now we're beginning to see a much tighter copper market looking out to the future.

Phil: You hear figures banded about, I see it on social media all the time, that to complete the renewable energy revolution, we're going to have to mine something like 50 times more than the amount of copper that's ever been mined. Have you heard those figures?

Peter Chilton: And I haven't heard that.

Phil: I mean, something like that. I'm not, uh, saying exactly that number.

Peter Chilton: I mean, the copper market's already a vast market anyway, I mean, for electrical purposes and so forth. So it's already a large market. So the extra copper we need is probably about another 15% to 20% increment looking out over the next few years.

Phil: So it's nothing like that.

Peter Chilton: So it's not like scale, it's not like some market like the lithium market, where it's coming from nowhere. The copper market's already well established, and so the increment is not as huge as, you know, as for some other metals.

Phil: Even with the number of electric vehicles coming online and wind power terminals and transmission lines and all of that, that's the kind of figure.

Peter Chilton: Yeah, well, I mean, still significant in the context of the difficulty of actually bringing on that extra production. So it's still significant. As I say, copper is already a very large established market anyway, so it's not, we're not starting from close to scratch.

Phil: Well, let's talk about that market, because in the report that you wrote about copper, and we'll put a link to it in the episode notes, copper consumption is diversified among many end users. What is this diversified usage?

Peter Chilton: Well, just about every person that uses a copper coil, an electric motor, or is wiring up household or industrial, everyone uses copper. The thing is, copper's unique. It's not easy to substitute it for anything else. Aluminium, up to a point. But aluminium is not as good a conductor as copper. So it's very unique properties and it's not like it doesn't demand. There's always this continuing demand for it, even though it might fluctuate a bit because of the number of sheer diverse usage.

Phil: And I assume then that would mean that the. It's not like some commodities which only have one usage, you know, you have one commodity for one usage.

Peter Chilton: Well, that's right. Something like nickel, which is mainly stainless steel, you know, the traditional uses, or aluminium, which is more limited, obviously, sort of building and construction and certain things like that, and obviously food packaging and things. But something that aluminium is probably more limited, whereas copper is so universal in its use globally. And everything we do really look at any old house and how much copper there is in terms of the electrical appliances we have, they're all going to have copper in them.

Phil: And copper is really recyclable as well, isn't it?

Peter Chilton: It is.

Phil: Does that have an effect on demand at any stage?

Peter Chilton: If you do a supply demand analysis for copper, you'd always factor in a degree of recycling and scrapping and so forth. And if you go to any scrapyard, you'll see that one of the biggest heaps would be copper. And it's certainly one of the most valuable heaps there. And when copper price is high, you often get. People steal copper, you know, from side of railways or wherever else. It might be easy copper to get. So copper is very recyclable, and that's one of the benefits of it. I mean, most copper would, wherever it can be, would be recycled. You never throw it away.

Phil: So historically, do you know why copper was the first metal that was smelted? Was there a reason for that?

Peter Chilton: Well, I think.

Phil: I think we're talking about, you know, 5000 BC or something.

Peter Chilton: Yeah, I mean, if you go back a long, long time, yeah, I suppose copper was recognizable in the sense that if you get a copper oxide, you often get like a green coloration in the rock. And people look at that and for a higher grade deposit, it might be shiny where you get native copper. So you can see how, uh, ancient people might have thought, well, this is interesting, and m get a sample of this, then they decide to melt it and suddenly realize they found, you know, a metal, and then that's often alloyed with something else to produce bronze or other metals or brass. And copper, unlike steel or iron, doesn't rust or anything. In fact, if anything, it produces an oxide which tends to protect it. While it's sometimes being used as a building material for churches and things.

Phil: That's why you see that green on.

Peter Chilton: The top of churches. That's malachite. And uh. That just provides the protection to that metal. So I uh, suppose it's easier to discover than some other metals more obviously. I don't think it's got a particularly high melting point. So it could be. That's why probably it's been used m so early on in mun civilization.

Phil: So where are the copper deposits in Australia? Where are the main ones?

Peter Chilton: I suppose the main ones. I mean they're all over the place. But I mean you get probably copper in every state. But probably the really big ones have been Mount Isa in Queensland, Olympic dam in South Australia. But there's also smaller copper deposits in Western Australia. There's Cady, which is gold and copper in New South Wales. There's some copper in the northern Turkey. So copper is fairly widely distributed. But the really big. Well the most widespread occurrence is probably Queensland is copper.

Phil: Historically a ah. Less volatile commodity than others.

Peter Chilton: It probably would be. That doesn't mean to say that the price hasn't gone through wild price swings. But probably because of the. The demand is so universal and constant. It probably hasn't been as volatile as some other metals.

Phil: So who are the biggest players in copper mining in Australia?

Peter Chilton: Well, BHP would probably be the biggest one with Olympic dam that would be the biggest. But there's also Glencore with Mount Isa And uh. Then Newmont with Acadia which I just mentioned. And there's a lot of smaller ones, smaller producers as well.

Phil: So if someone wanted to invest in copper they sort of feel that it's going to be the energy or it's going to be powering the renewable energy future. I guess BHP would give you exposure to it. But then exposure to all of the other commodities and minerals that BHP specialise in.

Peter Chilton: Yeah, I mean Australia's a bit difficult despite being a fairly large copper producer. It's major mining companies, copper mining companies. MIM Mount Isa that was taken out by Glencore quite a number of years ago. And of course Oz minerals which was probably the go to copper investment in Australia has been taken over by BHP. So that uh. Limits the sort of choice a little bit.

Phil: What about overseas? Who are some of the miners in other countries? And which other countries do supply a lot of copper?

Peter Chilton: Well, the countries that supply one of the largest would be Chile. Also Peru, United States, Canada. Uh, so there's a fair. Smaller countries like the Philippines produces some Indonesia. You know it's fairly well distributed. Mongolia, China. So copper is fairly well distributed. But I suppose the really globally significant deposits probably would be in South America.

Phil: So let's talk about the wire ETF because this is an ETF that provides exposure to global copper mining, doesn't it? Yeah, just tell us about that ETF and how an investor may want to use it.

Peter Chilton: Well, I mean wire uh, has investments in all the significant. If you drew up a list of the major copper players in the world they're probably all being wire, you know, so it's got a very broad spread. I mean the only problem with having a broad spread is that you probably don't get if any individual company does really? Well that may not show through in the ETF. So the ETF wire is going to sort of do whatever the copper price does, which is what I suppose that's what you want. But you're not going to get the sort of upside you would get if you just invested in a really good copper stock. But it takes the risk out in the sense that you could decide to buy one or two copper stocks and by accident buy a diode or buy one that has some issues and uh, you perform and suffer. So buying wire is a fairly safe way of getting a very broad spread of copper production spread around internationally.

Phil: And who are some of the companies that are in that ETF?

Peter Chilton: Well I think probably all of them, you know, that you can think of. Tech would be in there.

Phil: Freeport.

Peter Chilton: Who's tech, that's a canadian company, but they've got operations in South America as well as Canada. BHP would be in there. Freeport's in there. They've got broad spread in the US.

Phil: Who's um, Freeport?

Peter Chilton: Well they took over Phelps dodge a number of years ago, which was a major us producer. So they've got operations in the US. They've also got amazing projects in what was the older in jar now Indonesia. So they have a very broad spread. I mean you can probably name any company in the sort of global top 20 and they'd probably be in it.

Phil: So this is kind of coming back now to Thomas's question and I'd really like to encourage listeners to ask some questions because it saves me from coming up with ideas for the podcast as well and the ability to get experts like yourself, Peter, on to talk about these things. So he's specifically talking about Carnaby resources, I think. Yeah, Carnaby resources and Cooper Metals. Now when we looked it up, Carnaby's, you know, it's a small cap but m say a mid cap whereas Cooper Metals is a uh, tiny, tiny micro nano cap with a market cap of $6 million. What are your thoughts on those two companies? And of course, this is not personal advice. We don't know anything about Thomas's situation.

Peter Chilton: I mean, if you look at where both, uh, Cooper and Carnaby, they're both exploring in the Mount Isa region, and I suppose everyone's after the next big one, you know, Mount Isa is the big one. And then they discovered a short while afterwards, well, a long time afterwards, Ernest Henry. And then last 2030 years, they discovered Ernest Henry, which is. Was originally an open pit mine, which is now, you know, a deep underground mine and has now been acquired by evolution. So obviously people are looking for that. And I suppose Cooper and Carnaby, they're both after that and particularly Carnaby. I mean, they've had some great intersections and some great results and a scoping study, I suppose I'll, uh, put both socks still in a sort of speculative camp. You know, they're both watching. If you were going to want exposure, you probably want to own several to diversify a bit rather than holding one. I think economy in particular, with the intersections it's had in the scoping study does look interesting. But, you know, to actually convert from a scoping study, which is a very early stage sort of study, into you then got to go into pre feasibility. Feasibility, get the funding, financial investment decision. It could still be quite a number of years away before it enters production, if ever. There's no certainty of anything until that final investment decision is gone. But I think of the, shall we say, the non producers. Carnaby looks interesting. You know, one you'd certainly have a close look at. Cooper seems to be, well, it is obviously at this stage has got one or two good intersections, but a lot of it, uh, what they've got is a very broad range of different exploration areas which one or two might turn out to be really good, but again, no certainty so speculative. You know, if you're investing in copper, you want to be looking at these companies closely. You want to be following them so that if suddenly it really disappear that they found something which is going to be really a goer, uh, a potentially commercial, then you'd want to sort of. Then, well, I can take a holding, maybe a small holding initially and then keep following it.

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Phil: What's an intersection? You mentioned the word intersection.

Peter Chilton: Well, when they drill, what they would essay, that's take ah, readings of the grades throughout the drill hole. And if you look at Carnaby or as an example, I mean, they've had some really good intersections in terms of like meters, you know, as in several tens of meters of mineralized rock which they've intersected and they've taken the grades and measured the copper and the gold and cobalt and whatever else they want to measure at the same time. And then once you've got your intersection, you can then draw that on a map. In fact, it's all computerized. Build a geological model of the ore body.

Phil: And that's a 3d model.

Peter Chilton: 3D, yes, you build a. A 3d model. And then you can start using that as the basis for determining what the resources are. And then you build a. Build a mining plan like that again on in the software. And then you can work out what the reserves are going to be. Then you can do a proper assessment, whether it be scoping study. And uh, I presume that Carnaby has already got it on computer and more modeled. At the moment. I'm sure that's what they would have done if they've done a scoping study.

Phil: And Carnaby is just an explorer, is that correct?

Peter Chilton: At the moment, yeah, at the moment.

Phil: Do they produce?

Peter Chilton: Not at the moment. Not at the moment.

Phil: So what happens in the transition from, uh, an explorer to a miner? Or I'm assuming selling that claim to another company that does produce?

Peter Chilton: They could sell it, but most likely they'll want to develop it themselves. The crucial round is actually funding. How do you fund this? If you're a small company, how do you fund this? You hope the share price has gone up to, to raise some capital at a good level. So obviously companies have got a, uh, vested interest in staying in the highest share price possible. And then of course there'll be debt funding and there may also be, maybe you might sell part of the deposit, which often happens where you form a joint venture, say, if Glencore, for instance, wanted to take an interest or someone else. So then you fund it and then do all the get consultants in and your own mining people, and then build a mine plan and get the right management in to run it for you. So normally you try and do it internally, if you could.

Phil: So an investor who's looking at a company like this, really, it's a longer timeframe, isn't it? And there can be many bumps in the road on the way to it.

Peter Chilton: Can be a long time frame. And as you say, there are many bumps in the road. I mean, what this means, you wouldn't necessarily want to hold it all the way through. I mean, sometimes there's a Goldilocks time when they're doing all the exploration, drilling, and the share price keeps going up because there's a lot of optimism. And then as soon as the drilling is sort of over and you work out what the resources and you realize, ah, all the hard work is ahead of you, often the share price comes back a bit, you know, and people move on to something else. So you wouldn't necessarily hold on for dear life for life. Or you might sell at some point and then come back when the share price has weakened, for instance, or they've got it more established in the future and there's more signs of, look, I mean, a good time to get into the stock is when they've completed the final investment decision, they've raised the finance, and then you can see month by month the project's developing, and this is a firm date for a first production. That can be a good time to get in the stock at that point.

Phil: How much is the price of copper as a commodity an effect on the share price of companies like this?

Peter Chilton: Quite a lot. I mean, you can do all the valuation work you like and all the sort of scientific work, but often the key determinant of what seems to happen to share price of some companies, including producers, is what happens to the share, what happens to the underlying commodity price, like copper. So if the copper price is going down, you might see more weakness in the stock where nothing has actually changed, um, the company itself. But even if it's not a producer, you might still see the share price going back, and then as soon as the copper price starts to rise again, then you might see the share price rise again. So the underlying commodity does have a lot of a bearing on what happens to stock. I mean, don't forget, a lot of the investors are amateurs. They're just going to be following the underlying commodity price. They're not necessarily there long term, a lot of them, such way it tends.

Phil: To work, because I think a lot of people who don't have a lot of experience in this space, they've heard that if you want to leverage profit out of a commodity, it's best to be with the miners because that's where you're going to get the biggest move. And that they see that copper is going to be in demand because of the renewable energy revolution and they put two and two together. But that doesn't necessarily make forward, does it?

Peter Chilton: No, uh, but I think copper is probably quite good in the sense that unlike say, nickel, where it seemed that demand for nickel was going to be very strong. But it suddenly gets oversupplied by Indonesians. With copper, you can't see anywhere in the world which is going to lead to oversupply, which would really upset the.

Phil: Market because you know what the deposits are. There's a general view of how much copper deposit is available.

Peter Chilton: I uh, think it's something to do with the fact that, I mean, copper can be quite hard to find in deposits which are economic to mine. You know, there's a lot of deposits unmined in South America, for instance, but the grades are still low and then you've got all the infrastructure to provide and stuff like that. In Indonesia you had a different sort of nickel deposit called laterite nickel, which could be mined by big open pits and um, processed in a sort of bulk fashion, a different methodology mainly to produce stainless steel. And uh, that upset the market. And all this lateral nickel had been there for everybody knew about it. All it needed was the Chinese to come in and provide the funding and some of the expertise to develop it. But there's nothing on the copper side that I can see that would do anything like that.

Phil: In the under the radar report which I was mentioning, another company that you talk about is evolution mining. Is that a producer or an explorer?

Peter Chilton: Oh yeah. Well, evolution mining would be Australia's probably second largest gold producer. But in recent years they've also been developing a copper component, the organization. So that started off Ernest Henry in Queensland where they acquired an interest in the mine there, which is a copper gold producer. And I think they probably did it initially mainly for the gold, but then they got the copper with that. And uh, more recently they've sort of bought out the rest of, of Ernest Henry and being prepared to go really deep to where the copper is. And I think evolution has recognized, you know, that copper is a bit like gold in a way, that there's this strong demand and an underlying positive pricing for copper like this for gold. And then more recently they've acquired 80% of the North Parks mine, which is in western New South Wales, which is near, obviously near Parkes. And that's quite a substantial copper producer with exploration upside, which probably they have never been really fully addressed in the past. And it's also not too far away from their, some uh, of their existing operations in New South Wales. I see a lot of synergies. So evolutions now about 30% of their revenues from copper, which gives them exposure to copper, good exposure to copper and leverage. So it's a fairly safe way of playing copper in the australian market.

Phil: Is that the main reason why you like evolution as a company for investment?

Peter Chilton: We've always liked evolution as a copper.

Phil: Mhm.

Peter Chilton: We've always liked evolution and Northern Star, but now that evolution's got this copper component, it's just another dimension to the company. And you do see people talking about evolution as a uh, copper boost as well. So it's got this extra appeal I think too. Uh, so that's, I think going to drive interest in the stock over time.

Phil: Investing in these kind of mining companies can be an easy path to losing Money. What sort of warnings would you give to investors who are looking at investing in copper and some of these explorers and miners?

Peter Chilton: Well you've got to look at the underlying commodity. What's that doing? Gold's been very strong. It's close to near term all time highs, but it has weakened off a bit. I mean any weakness in the gold price for whatever reason, could be currency or just becomes less fashionable. You have to be cautious about the whole gold sector. So it's always a good idea to look at the underlying gold price. What's happening to the gold index, XGD. So look at the underlying indices and also look at what the company's quarterly reports are doing, what they're saying, you know, they'll give some sort of outlook. Sometimes it may be a positive outlook, but if for some reason they've had a mine that's been causing problems. So I guess it's just you don't just sit and forget, you just look at the underlying commodity, look at when the company reports on the ASX and just get a feel. Just read the summaries. For instance, the margin director might do, is it positive or is it cautionary? And uh, the same for copper as well. Look at what's happening. The copper price. Copper prices has weakened in the last few weeks from its highs, that some people might wish to take profits in their stocks because of that just going.

Phil: Off copper and gold. For a moment I just wanted to quickly cover hydrogen as well. I've only just recently found out that hydrogen you can actually mine, I'm not sure if even that's the right word. It's a gas. So you can extract hydrogen from the earth or it can be produced as well. Tell us about hydrogen and um, what have you seen? Because, you know, again, this is one of those things that the australian government is now getting right behind hydrogen production.

Peter Chilton: Well, hydrogen, to mine it like a gas, very small. I mean, there are a couple of companies which have been looking at that, but in the scheme of things, it's always going to be a niche thing. And most of the world's hydrogen is going to come from other sources, and at the moment, most of it comes from natural gas, and it's converted from natural gas into hydrogen. All that's why it's extracted, which is.

Phil: Quite energy intensive as well, isn't it, to do that?

Peter Chilton: Well, it's energy intensive, but the key thing is that it produces all this carbon dioxide as well. So it's not like a blue gas, I think, quite blue hydrogen. And so you get some companies talking about hydrogen, of how wonderful hydrogen is, but it's only wonderful if you produce it in a fashion that doesn't produce a greenhouse gas. I suppose also, as well, when you produce heat from gas, you always get some methane emissions, fugitive methane emissions, which escape the atmosphere. So whenever that always happens when you're producing gas. So I suppose the emphasis that the government has on hydrogen is green hydrogen. And green hydrogen is produced by the electrolysis of water, which is simple science you probably did at school, that produces hydrogen and oxygen, and that is the. In its purest form, is what produces green hydrogen, and that's what the government wants to attract, and it can be done. But there's a lot of. There's a few hurdles. I mean, the only way you can possibly make it viable, and certainly greenhouse, is to have all the power that you use for that electrolysis of water from renewable sources, which, and it has to be cheap, has to be low cost. So that would be either from wind or from solar, unless there's some other method of producing it. But that's primarily wind and solar.

Phil: So hydrogen is not a commodity, is it? Or is it?

Peter Chilton: It's an element. Hydrogen is an element.

Phil: Copper or iron.

Peter Chilton: Yeah. So, yes, I guess it is a commodity. I mean, hydrogen is a bit like copper. Hydrogen is big business. I mean, a lot of hydrogen is produced for use in making fertilizers and chemicals and a whole range of applications. So it is a sort of industrial gas. All the major gas producers, for instance, like Lindy and things, I mean, they would make a lot of hydrogen. But the new uses for hydrogen, the demand for hydrogen, uh, is really as a fuel, and hydrogen contains all of that energy. When you make it, the energy is contained within the hydrogen, and that can be used as a fuel as a liquefier or under pressure or whatever means, and that can be used for powering fuel cells as well as direct combustion as well. So that's a new potential fuel. Early days, that's the main appeal there.

Phil: You've got a lot of experience in the mining industry. In analyzing mining. Do you find that there's fashions in commodities? Like a few years ago was lithium, for example?

Peter Chilton: Yeah, I mean, there is. It's not the long ago that, uh, nickel was in great demand and private equity was trying to acquire nickel deposits and things, so nickel was in demand. I mean, and of course there's been times when the oil prices being going through the roof, so oil. And, uh, then a little while, and then at some time there was coal, sea, methane, so gas. And Australia produced a lot of gas for Lng. So Lng is another commodity. So at any one time there's always something. Fertilizers, potash. There's been a lot of commodities and at various stages they've had their, uh, price runs and there's been a lot of new production, a lot of new exploration of that commodity. So, yes, I mean, uh, it's ever changing, really.

Phil: I guess that's something for investors to be wary of, that when you're hearing about a particular commodity in the news, it's usually because the price has run up already.

Peter Chilton: Yeah. Well, I guess the real thing is to try and pick it before it stops to move. I suppose it's a real. So I guess if you were, uh, looking at commodities as you look at, you'd be continually monitoring them all.

Phil: Yeah, be whack them all, wouldn't it?

Peter Chilton: Yeah, I mean, you get some commodities like Tin, which was long forgotten, but that's had a really good run recently, Tin. But, uh, a lot of people would have said a few years ago, look, Tin's never going to make anything, but it is now.

Phil: What's tin used for?

Peter Chilton: Well, a lot of it is used in solder and of course solder gets used for a lot of electronics, so demand. And there's a lot of new uses coming out for tin as well, minor uses. So the demand for tin is quite good at the moment. And again, there's not a lot of supply.

Phil: Yeah. It's not a very sexy commodity. No, is it?

Peter Chilton: No, no. Flies under the radar bit, so to speak. So to speak.

Phil: Well, on that note, Peter Chilton from the under the radar report, thank you very much for joining me today.

Peter Chilton: Thanks for being a pleasure.

Chloe: Thanks for listening to shares for beginners. You can find more@sharesforbeginners.com if you enjoy listening, please take a moment to rate or review in your podcast player, or tell a friend who might want to learn more about investing for their future.

Place transcript here

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